Boris Pa poglejva eno razpravo o dnevih iz NSK (Ninestar KI yahoo groups) Tole je skoraj vse, kar je na tej skupini rečeno o tem, Tako Yoseph kot Danny pa sta oba tako znanstvenika kot tudi praktika in teoretika DZK in drugih, metod astrologije. Iz besedila lahko razberemo, da zadeve niso preproste. Vojko **************************************************** From: Joseph Yu <joseph_yu@y...> Date: Fri May 26, 2000 9:17 pm Subject: Day Stars Dear Members, I find that there is a misunderstanding in the way the day stars are calculated. The rule is that from Winter Solstice onwards and until the next Summer Solstice, the day stars run in the forward sequence: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1, ... From Summer Solstice onwards to Winter Solstice, the day star runs in the backward sequence: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 9, ... The first Jia Zi day after Winter Solstice is assigned the star 1. The first Jia Zi day after Summer Solstice is assigned the star 9. However, it is understood that the sequence runs forward right after Winter Solstice and runs backward right after Summer Solstice. These two solstices are precise moments, not a day. The sequences do not start on the first Jia Zi day after the respective solstices. What are the stars assigned to the days between the solstices and the first Jia Zi day after the respective solstice then? We have to do it by interpolation. Trace backward from the first Jia Zi day after, say, the Summer Solstice until the moment of the Summer Solstice. I will use 2000 as an example. Jun 21, 2000 at 9:45 at 120E is Summer Solstice. Jul 5 is the first Jia Zi day after this. It has Day Star 9 according to the rule. Jul 5 = 9 Jul 4 = 1 Jul 3 = 2 Jul 2 = 3 Jul 1 = 4 Jun 30 = 5 Jun 29 = 6 Jun 28 = 7 Jun 27 = 8 Jun 26 = 9 Jun 25 = 1 Jun 24 = 2 Jun 23 = 3 Jun 22 = 4 Jun 21 = 5 Summer Solstice, sequence go backward from this day. However, If we run the sequence from the previous Winter Solstice, we should get 5 for Jun 21. In fact, Jun 21 has two stars, 5 before 9:48 and 5 after 9:48. The two stars are the same being a coincidence. If we work out around Winter Solstice on Dec 21 at 21:38 at 120E, then the sequence should look like: Dec 10 = 4 Dec 11 = 3 Dec 12 = 2 Dec 13 = 1 Dec 14 = 9 Dec 15 = 8 Dec 16 = 7 Dec 17 = 6 Dec 18 = 5 Dec 19 = 4 Dec 20 = 3 Dec 21 = 2 before 21:38 (13:38 GMT) Dec 21 = 8 after 21:38 (13:38 GMT) Dec 22 = 9 Dec 23 = 1 Dec 24 = 2 Dec 25 = 3 Dec 26 = 4 Dec 27 = 5 Dec 28 = 6 Dec 29 = 7 Dec 30 = 8 Dec 31 = 9 Jan 1 = 1 (Jan 1 is a Jia Zi day). I hope this is clear. The way the sequence of the day stars run depends on whether the sun is moving towards or away from the Tropic of Cancer. The sequence should not start on a Jia Zi day but at precisely the Winter and Summer Solstices. Joseph From: "Xi Lu" <xilu@x...> Date: Sat May 27, 2000 2:39 am Subject: Re: [NineStarKi] Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT Dear master Yu, Thank you so much for sharing this major information. It adds a great deal indeed to the study of day Qi. Just for beginners, and to refresh others maybe, there have been a lot of different methods for calculating Qi of days. You will find several interpretations from different sources. First, let's explain what Jia Zi means for those of you who did not have a chance yet to familiarize yourselves with some of the Chinese terminology. Jia Zi points to a Yang Wood Rat day. To keep it simple for now, the Chinese zodiac includes twelve animals, starting with Rat. The animals run in a twelve hour, day, month and year cycle, so that after the twelfth animal, pig, the cycle starts all over again in Rat. The five transformations also run in cycles, but here a cycle of ten is used, starting with Yang Wood. Each of the five transformations has a yin and yang appearance, so that after a Yang Wood day comes a Yin Wood day, followed by a Yang Fire day and a Yin Fire day et cetera, until a new cycle begins in Yang Wood. Anyway, these cycles of twelve and ten start off their journey on the first day of the animal cycle - in Rat - and in the first sign of the elements - Yang Wood. While a cycle of ten elements has already been completed, the cycle of twelve animals is still under way to 'click' with the former at a certain moment. In other words, the Chinese work with a time cycle of 60, that includes 5 times an element cycle of ten and 5 times an animal cycle of twelve. The start of such a cycle is on a Yang Wood Rat day i.e. a Jia Zi day. The basic idea is that there are two moments in which it is possible to start a year. We can start a year at the Winter Solstice, around 21 December. We can start a year, two new moons after Winter Solstice, at around 4 or 5 February. In the first method, the Winter Solstice is taken as the shortest day, after which the days will get longer. In other words, the yang of sun energy is waxing. This moment in time is shown by the following hexagram: ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ __________ A hexagram shows six yin lines or six yang lines and the bottom line is the first line. The top line is the sixth line. You can see the idea of the birth of yang. The second method says, that a year starts when the sun reaches 15 degrees in the sign of Aquarius. I have seen many different interpretations. One, like master Yu described, says to start a new cycle of days on the first Jia Zi day after either Solstice. I have also come across the idea of starting a new cycle of days on the first Jia Zi day just before either Solstice. (Translations: both methods say a new cycle of days should start on the Jia Zi day closest to any Solstice). I have seen Chinese daily calendars that seem to go by yet other calculations. Master Yu is making a strong point here, because the format he is reacting to says that Qi is waxing after Winter Solstice and waning after Summer Solstice. Yet, the format does not show waxing Qi right after Winter Solstice, but rather waits until the first Jia Zi day after the solstice. This means that in actuality nature is already waxing but it can take up to 59 days before the days start counting upward. So, master Yu, I have a couple of questions: - The first method says that just before a 1 Water Jia Zi day we should have another 1 Water day and just before a 9 Fire Jia Zi day we should have another 9 Fire day. What is your assessment of this and what is the rational? - Am I correct to say that your explanation is that we should link the cycle of 60 to the Solstices to make up for the period between the Solstices and the first Jia Zi day after that? Like I said in the welcome message, a lot of our members have come a long way. I am very happy with master Yu's posting. Please realize this is 'heavy' stuff. Apart from an indepth first-time-ever series on this matter in Ray Langley's ChineseAstrology list, rest assured this has been the best kept secret. I have a colleague in UK who had to pay US 3000 to get a month from a master, without him giving away the clue for the calculation. I am sure there are amongst you who dove deep enough into this matter of calculating days to share with us how different calculations are done. Let's share them. Why, for instance, do the months count backward, but in one interpretation they count upward after Summer Solstice. Is there a difference in Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan calculation and if so, what are their basics, their foundations. What do you know about time calculation based on the moon, the sun, the Yi Jing et cetera in relation to our studies of Nine Star Ki, Feng Shui and Four Pillars of Destiny? Calculating time must be one of the most intriguing subjects. The goal of this list is not to offer or reach one final conclusion, because there isn't any (too many different ways to measure time from too many different reference points), but to share what we know. We have to study different approaches. Confusion vanishes, once we know the different sources. We understand destiny once we understand time. Hope to here from you all and again thank you master Yu for this major contribution, Xi Lu From: Joseph Yu <joseph_yu@y...> Date: Sat May 27, 2000 6:51 am Subject: Re: [NineStarKi] Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT --- Xi Lu <xilu@x...> wrote: > Master Yu is making a strong point here, because the > format he is reacting to says that Qi is waxing > after > Winter Solstice and waning after Summer Solstice. > Yet, the format does not show waxing Qi right after > Winter Solstice, but rather waits until the first > Jia Zi day > after the solstice. > This means that in actuality nature is already > waxing > but it can take up to 59 days before the days start > counting upward. No, the format shows that right after the Winter Solstice the Qi is waxing. The star sequence changes from backward to forward. We do not wait until the first Jia Zi day after the solstice. If you examine the sequence you will find that on the day where the solstice falls, there are two stars, one rules before the solstice while the other rules after the solstice. Then the sequence of stars after the solstice changes direction. The qi is continuous without duplication. We do not have two consecutive days having the same day star. Qi is waxing right after the Winter Solstice and waning right after the Summer Solstice. This is why I find it more reasonable and convincing than other methods. The Bo Hai Jing (Precious Sea Classic) teaches another method. It requires different considerations for the Upper Cycle, Middle Cycle and Lower Cycle. (These are 60 year cycles with 3 cycles forming a larger cycle of 180 years,) Some calendars in China use this method and you will find different stars for the Middle and Lower Cycles. The method is not quite reasonable in my opinion. I will talk about the issue of the Northern and Southern Hemispheres next time. Joseph From: Joseph Yu <joseph_yu@y...> Date: Sat May 27, 2000 12:57 pm Subject: Various thoughts ADVERTISEMENT Xi Lu and members, You may wonder why all of a sudden I talk about Nine Star Ki. Actually this is one of the types of Chinese Astrology I studied in the nineteen sixties. I did not follow the Japanese version but found some ancient writings about Jiu Gong Ming Li ¤E ®c ©R ²z . Therefore what I am talking in this mailing list is mainly from the ancient Chinese documents. Jiu Gong Ming Li uses 3 stars instead of 4 (the hour star is not used). The three numbers are the Year Star, the Month Star and the Day Star. All these are based on the birth data of the person. The third number is the Day Star for the day the person is born. People in the world will then be classified into 9x9x9=729 types. Compared with Four Pillars's 60x12x60x12=518,400 types and ZiWeiDou Shu's 60x12x30x12=259,200 types, it is obviously too crude. However, getting into too much details sometimes may result in neglecting the big picture. That is why the Nine Star Ki has its value. Anyway, this method has been abandoned by the Chinese three thousands years ago. It was then exported to the neighboring countries (probably as part of the "Destroying the Barbarian Classic"?). Some of the original formulas were lost. For example, the Japanese and the Tibetans had to invent a formula for the third number based on the 81 combinations of the first two numbers instead of using the Day Star. Now that I have completed the Four Pillars and Zi Wei correspondence course books, it does not hurt to talk about Nine Star Ki. If I talked about this before I introduced the Four Pillars and Zi Wei, it would have given people the wrong impression about my knowledge. I am not saying that the original formulas must be correct and later inventions are no good. But I disagree with the attitude towards serious studies that there is no need of uniformity. This is not the scientific way. The scientific method is to present the method and discuss the reasoning behind the theory. If there are different and contrasting theories, most likely some are not reasonable. Those that are unreasonable should be discarded. Astrology is a serious subject because it can change a person's life. All theories should be seriously discussed. The attitude that everybody is right is simply not right. We may not be able to identify what is right and what is wrong without much discussion. But to draw the conclusion that everyone is right even before discussion is definitely not the scientific attitude. I find this attitude in Feng Shui and other metaphysical studies. I suppose this is the hindrance to progress. If we want metaphysical studies to be respected, our attitude should change. Joseph From: Joseph Yu <joseph_yu@y...> Date: Sun May 28, 2000 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [NineStarKi] Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT Dear Arlene, Let us examine the rules and reasonings. Option 1: The star sequence starts counting forward right after Winter Solstice and backward right after Summer Solstice. Option 2: The star sequence starts counting forward on the first Jia-Zi day after Winter Solstice and backward on the first Jia-Zi day after Summer Solstice. Option 3: The star sequence starts counting forward on the last Jia-Zi day before Winter Solstice and backward on the last Jia-Zi day before Summer Solstice. Option 4: It is a combination of Options 2 and 3. The sequence changes direction on the Jia-Zi day closest to the Solstices. In my opinion, Option 1 is more reasonable as the other options do not reflect there is a change in the way qi flows at the Solstices. There are also three options regarding the star on a Jia Zi Day near the Solstices. Option A: The first Jia-Zi day after the Winter Solstice is assigned star 1 while the first Jia-Zi day after the Summer Solstice is assigned star 9. Option B: The last Jia-Zi day before the Winter Solstice is assigned star 1 while the last Jia-Zi day before the Summer Solstice is assigned star 9. Option C: This is a combination of A and B. The nearest Jia-Zi day to the Winter Solstice is assigned star 1 while the nearest Jia-Zi day to the Summer Solstice is assigned star 9. I prefer Option A, the reason being that the leading star should change only after the Solstices. Now, as we know, the Solstices are the precise moments of the year when the Sun is overhead the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. It "moves" towards and away from the north before and after these moments. The day is then divided into two parts, that before the Solstice and that after the Solstice. The first part will have the star from the previous sequence. The second part will have a new star. What is that star? It is the star that makes the first Jia-Zi day after the Winter Solstice #1 when we talk about the Winter Solstice. It is the star that makes the first Jia-Zi day after the Summer Solstice #9 when we talk about the Summer Solstice. The mathematics is to run the sequence from the Solstice to the first Jia-Zi day to make sure it is a 1 in first case and a 9 in the second case. If we allow the forward sequence to run until the last Gui-Hai day of a 180-day cycle (which is approximately 6 months), it should end up in a 9. Then if the new backward sequence is to start the next day (the first Jia-Zi day after Summer Solstice), it should also be a 9. That is why you have two consecutive days with star 9. If this backward sequence is to run the 6-month cycle, it will end up in a Hui-Hai day with #1. The next day will begin with another #1. So it is now clear which do you want - the waxing and waning qi to be right at the Solstices or approximately near the Solstices. If you know the first Jia-Zi day after a Solstice, you should be able to figure out the second star on the Solstice day by extending the sequence from the Jia-Zi day. Joseph From: "windyhill" <windyhill@h...> Date: Mon May 29, 2000 2:53 am Subject: Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT Hello again, The book I am using is by Edgar Sung. He uses the Soltices as a marker but appears to use the closest Jia Zi day be it before or after the Solstice. Using Dec. 20th as a 3 (reverse motion) and Dec. 21st as a 2/8 and the first Jia Zi day after which is Jan. 1st, 2001, I see how we arrive at the 2/8. We count backwards - Dec. 31st 2000 is a 9, Dec. 30th is a 8, etc. The 2/8 bump into each other at the time of the Solstice. I understand! Now using the book by Higa, July 3rd is a 8 and July 4th, 2000 is Gui Hai and a 9, July 5th is Jia Zi and also a 9, and July 6th is a 8. I understand! It makes sense to me that the Solstices should be the marker. As to whether it should be the closest Jia Zi day to the Solstice or the one after I see where being as the energy changes after the Solstice the leading star should also change after. Thank you for your very thorough explanation. Take care, Arlene From: "Danny Van den Berghe" <danny.vandenberghe@p...> Date: Wed May 31, 2000 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [NineStarKi] Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT Dear Joseph, all, Thanks for bringing up this subject. I have been studying the same problem when I was working at my Four Pillars software. The problem is that there are 182 or 183 days between summer and winter solstice. This cannot be divided by 9. That creates all the problems. The solution you propose is very good, the only disadvantage being the sudden jump in number on the solstice days. But something interesting is the case here. Applying your method one will find that the 2 numbers on a solstice day always add up to 10, that means they are always 2 numbers that are opposite each other in the magic square. So, if the numbers counting upwards towards summer solstice end in number 3 on the solstice day, the number shifts to 7 on the solstice moment and starts counting backwards. This shifting over to the opposite number in the Lo Shu is also very appropriate with the shift in Chi. So, we need not count back from the first Jia Zi day after solstice to find the day numbers. This formula is more easy and elegant. And the 5 star staying 5 in your example is not coincidence, 5 always shifts into 5 on a solstice day. But, we have one big exception with this rule. Every 10 or 11 years it happens there are 3 Jia Zi days between two solstices (Last time was in 1991) and then using my system does not result in the first Jia Zi day after winter solstice to be 1 (it would be 4). Perhaps this shifting over into the opposite number of the Lo Shu on solstice days is the rule , and the 1st Jia Zi day after WS being 1 is simply a consequence of it... Are there any documented (and dated) examples of daily stars which could be used to test this? Looking forward to your input. All the best, Danny From: Joseph Yu <joseph_yu@y...> Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [NineStarKi] Day Stars ADVERTISEMENT Danny, Thank you for pointing out the exception. The adding up to 10 feature gives us a hint on the more reasonable method. I have to amend the rules to read: [1] Locate the Jia Zi day nearest Winter Solstice. Case 1: It is before Winter Solstice. Imagine it is assigned the star 1. Count forward to get the new star for the second part of the Winter Solstice day. Do not change the star before the Winter Solstice. Case 2: It is after Winter Solstice. Then assign the star 1 to this day. Count back to get the star for the second part of the Winter Solstice day. This will guarantee that the two stars on Winter Solstice day add up to ten. [2] Locate the Jia Zi day nearest Summer Solstice. Case 1: It is before Summer Solstice. Imagine it is assigned the star 9. Count backward to get the new star for the second part of the Summer Solstice day. Do not change the star before the Summer Solstice. Case 2: It is after Summer Solstice. Then assign the star 9 to this day. Count back to get the star for the second part of the Summer Solstice day. This will guarantee that the two stars on Summer Solstice day add up to ten. In actual practice just employ the adding up to ten rule. It is simple and neat. The only ancient documentation is in the Bao Hai Jing which unfortunately does not give reasonable results. Joseph ****************************************************